Episode #4: Debunking Responsible Gaming Myths with Tammi Barlow
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Tammi Barlow, Vice President of Global Responsible Gaming at Bally’s, shares the story of her career journey, from her start in health and human services to developing and overseeing responsible gaming and corporate responsibility programs. As an expert in the responsible gaming space, Tammi sheds light on lesser-known areas of the industry, debunking misconceptions and looking at future opportunities for growth and better player protection in the evolving responsible gaming landscape.
Notes
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Jordyn Mihok: Hello and welcome to another episode of Level Up With Wondr. I'm Jordyn Mihok and I'm a marketing coordinator here at Wondr Nation. March is Women's History Month and Problem Gambling Awareness Month, and we'll be talking to some amazing women who have made a lasting impact in the gaming industry. And today's guest is also an expert on all things problem gambling and responsible gaming related, I'd like to welcome Tammi Barlow to the show.
Tammi has over a decade of experience in building and managing responsible gaming and corporate responsibility programs with companies like IGT, William Hill, Cesar's Entertainment and Rush Street Interactive. She's previously served as co-Chairwoman of the Global Gaming Women DEI committee, and is currently the chairwoman of the Responsible Gaming Committee for the National Council on Problem Gambling. She's also a board member of the Massachusetts Council on Gaming and Health and African Americans in Gaming. She currently works at Bally's as the Inaugural Vice President of Global Responsible Gaming.
So I just want to, first of all, thank you so much for joining us, Tammi. We're very happy to have you and I'm excited for our conversation.
Tammi Barlow: Thank you for having me, and I'm excited to be here.
Jordyn Mihok: Great. So I thought we could just start off by talking about your current role with Bally's. So if you could tell me a little bit about your current position, what are you responsible for?
Tammi Barlow: Yeah. So I am the inaugural Vice President of Global Responsible Gaming. And what that means is I get to work with a bunch of great people around the world who are all committed to consumer protection.
Basically we just look to ensure that we're meeting all regulatory requirements, that's first and foremost. But it also means that we look for ways also, that we can improve the ways that we do things within the industry and within our own interactive platform and our casinos.
We look for ways that we can better awareness around responsible gaming with our employees within our communities. It means that we're partnering with, you know problem gambling councils throughout the United States. We are very, very much engaged in different accreditations to ensure that we are always holding ourselves to a higher standard.
The other part of what I do is I work with our ESG committee. So Bally's is very committed to ESG, and so responsible gaming and guest safety is one of those pillars. But we also look at things in ESG, as you know, we look at DEI, we look at our employee awareness, we look at human trafficking, we look at a lot of different things that affect our industry, and I work with some really great people as well as some of our board members on our initiatives at Bally's.
So that's sort of what I do.
Jordyn Mihok: Great. Great. And I know you're still relatively new to this role, but what has been your proudest moment so far?
Tammi Barlow: Actually I'm glad you asked that because it just took place on Friday. So one of the exciting things about this role is that Bally's has a amazing casino that they're building in the city of Chicago, and I am from Illinois. I'm from Evanston, but I represent Chicago. And, there was the Illinois Council on Problem Gambling, hosted its inaugural Blacks and African Americans Problem Gambling Conference and Bally's was a, a sponsor.
And it was really great to have an opportunity, number one, it kind of brought my career full circle because I started in Health and Human Services back in 1998, and a lot of the treatment providers and a lot of the people that were legislators and were working with the state are still in those roles.
And it was just exciting to be able to come to them, really raise awareness about actually what happens at casinos and with operators when it comes to responsibility and also really be able to talk to them about ways that they can work with me again and at Bally's. And it was just a really pivotal moment to really bring back to Chicago all the great things that Bally's doing.
Jordyn Mihok: Awesome. Awesome. So you did mention something that I want to go into a little bit. You started your career in Health and human services, but you're, you've been in gaming for a while now, so I was just kind of curious about your career path and what led you to gaming and how and why did your career evolve?
Tammi Barlow: Yeah, so, my first, you know, real job was working in PR and marketing and I was a very junior person and I was basically responsible for promoting all of our programs. So I worked for a wonderful organization called HRDI and they provided services for substance abuse, mental health and they also had programs in problem gambling and in fact, we were one of the first agencies to provide problem gambling services in the state of Illinois. Basically it was working with different legislators, whether it be the Illinois Black Caucus, and to, to talk about things that we needed to, you know, protect our consumers at the time for their behavior, health and human service needs.
As I started to work on my MBA the CEO of the company, his name is Dr. Vincent Bakeman, he asked me, you know, what do you wanna do? You know what, what's, what's inspiring you to continue in your, in your career and with your education? And I'm like, I wanna do what you do one day.
And I didn't mean it like being a CEO because that is not anything that I'd like to do, but he worked with the United Nations and I was really fascinated in the fact that he would get a chance to be sort of a voice from the black community, specifically health and human services and really make a difference in international markets.
Sub-Saharan Africa was his region, and so one of the things that we knew is that things like mental health, substance abuse, therapy, all of those things were not things that were very well received at the time in some of the, the, the countries that we were interested in. And so when I got the opportunity, he one day just asked me if I could start attending a couple meetings in New York.
And, that's how I ended up getting into working with international development and working with United Nations office on drugs and crime. And then from there I really, really got this bug and really loved, like talking about, things that people need to make their lives better and it became something I was passionate about.
How I got into gaming from that is that state of Illinois at the time was one of those states that if they were having funding issues, they would not pay health and human service providers. And I was not one of those people, I was very young and I wasn't one of those people that could miss paychecks. And although I understood, you know, there were, things that needed to be done in this state, I like, I still have bills to pay, so I started looking at ways that I could you know, still do good, but I wanted to work in corporate. I wanted to actually be able to work for a corporation in a way that I could still do good for, for people.
At the time my mentor was Senator Maddie Hunter, who's from Illinois. She knew about the fact that Illinois, the Illinois lottery was up to have the first private management agreement. And the company that I eventually went to work for gtech became IGT, they were the first managers of the Illinois lottery.
And so they had this role, corporate social responsibility. And as I looked into it, it was a lot of what was required were things that I was really good at. So it was like writing, working with underrepresented, you know, communities, problem gambling was something that I was very familiar with and it just resonated with me, and I never even knew that anything like this existed. And so my first role was, you know, working for North Star Lottery Group and I was the manager of corporate social responsibility and I just became fascinated with everything that went into it and that's just kind of how I changed my career.
Jordyn Mihok: Very interesting, very interesting. So you've worked with several gaming organizations. What are some of the biggest wins and proudest achievements in your career thus far?
Tammi Barlow: I think my biggest achievements are having an opportunity to work with these great organizations on building their responsible gaming programs from the ground up. I think that what I learned at North Star, then IGT became very pivotal because I learned that I love accreditations. I love anything that has to do with regulations.
I loved working with the legal team. I, I never even knew this part of myself, and I think that one of the first goals I had was to ensure that the Illinois lottery received its certification through the World Lottery Association, and it was something that I had never done, and when I achieved it, I was like, I can't even believe I did that.
And then it just became something that I became good at, and then I was able to learn from, you know, some of our colleagues at IGT in Italy who were doing amazing things, you know, shout out to Stefania Colombo because she's amazing. And I really just started to work on things that were... greater just my day to day that, you know, made me be in a position where I could really showcase what organizations were doing, whether you were a supplier, whether you were a lottery, whether you were a casino company.
I just love telling the stories of the great ways that these companies protect their consumers and I love to show all the ways that it's embedded within their, their operation. So my greatest achievement is every single time I'm able to get an accreditation for an organization.
I was able to first have an impact at North Star and then later I was able to achieve this for Rush Street Interactive, and now I'm working on that with Bally's and so it's just something that each time it happens, I learn more and it just makes me feel proud to say that I had a part in it.
Jordyn Mihok: Yeah, you told me a little bit about that when we talked before, about like kind of your specialty when it comes to responsible gaming and it is certifications.
Can you talk a little bit more about like kind of what an organization has to do to get certifications and why they're important?
Tammi Barlow: Yeah, no, I mean there's several different certifications out there, I think the two that I'm most familiar with are the World Lottery Association, which is an accreditation that lotteries can work towards achieving their level 1, 2, 3, and four, and each level they have to demonstrate, you know, different aspects of their business and how they are responsible and protecting consumers. So that's everything from looking at responsible advertising, it's how are you communicating with your players, you know, how is your stakeholder engagement? Are you doing anything for research?
Then I learned about, there's this, you know, this great accreditation RG check and that is for casinos and interactive, and again, it's a, it's a set of standards that an operator must look at all aspects of its business, and it makes, you know, it takes stock. What are you doing? And then ways that you can also continually improve your program.
Every jurisdiction that a gaming company goes into you have to provide some sort of responsible gaming program so that's just like the, the first level. But for those organizations that really wanna take it to the next level, I think going through accreditations makes you better because it, it makes you look inward within your operations.
And I have been very grateful to work for organizations that really care about this and they really want to put their selves to the test.
Jordyn Mihok: Interesting. So you've worked with, you've developed and overseen a lot of different responsible gaming programs. So what in your opinion, do you think makes a good and impactful responsible gaming program?
Tammi Barlow: I think that it has to be a culture. I think your leadership, if you do not have a leader who believes in it and when I say it, I mean the protection of consumers and safeguards. I think that's key. That's the first way, that's the, you can't do anything without that. But second, I think it's always wanting to see if there are other ways that you can, you know, further, you know prevent risk.
I think one of the benefits that I had was being so connected to the treatment community and knowing that prevention is what is ... it's one thing for a person to already have those risky behaviors and then ultimately, you know, be at risk to self exclude or anything that they feel they may need to support their gambling to keep it safe, but I feel that being able to communicate so you're looking at ways to prevent it, you're looking at ways to communicate, and then you're also have to have those resources available at the ready when they need them. So I think those are, you know, first it's gotta be top down and then your pillars have to focus on prevention, communication, and resourcefulness in order to be successful, in my opinion.
Jordyn Mihok: Definitely. Definitely. And so how has the approach to that kind of changed or evolved since you've been in the gaming industry? Is there still a lot of change that's going on in the way that people approach responsible gaming today? Or is it something that's kind of leveled out over time?
Tammi Barlow: No, it's actually a really exciting time in the industry. When I first started, it was really, like I said, I was more so looking at it from a lottery perspective and even just knowing that lotteries like, are holding themselves to a standard, that was fascinating.
And then I think as gaming started to expand into different platforms and it became more prevalent, I think the industry really took a look at itself to say, what do we need to be doing? And I love the fact that there are so many different voices in this space that it's, there's never a dull moment. We can never rest on the latest research that came out because there's new gaming and there's new forms of playing so we always have to be ahead of the curve of what's coming next, and I really love that as the industry has evolved so has the lens that's looking at consumer protection.
Again, even having those opposing voices when it comes to gambling is very important because that's another way for you to check yourself to make sure that you are actually are doing the best that you can do. And I can tell you that at all of the different operators that I've met there, there are some very passionate people that are committed to consumer protection and responsible gaming and preventing problem gambling. And I think to see more people now employed at gaming companies that are, you know, presenting on the things that they're doing, it's fascinating and I think it's just gonna continue to get better and better.
Jordyn Mihok: Absolutely. How would you say that responsible gaming programs and problem gambling programs differ? 'cause I know that you have a lot of experience in both.
Tammi Barlow: So responsible gaming is more, I would say it's more on tools and like limit setting it's more about education. It's, it's more, I think about those preventative ways of keeping your gambling safe, where problem gambling, it does have all of those elements, but it, I feel that it has more ways for people to do things like exclude or get help or, you know, families to have resource and understanding.
So that's how I will see the difference. I mean, there are problem gambling councils that are strictly about problem gambling resources and, and giving people the help they need when they need it. And then there are some that are very focused on having, you know, focusing on the prevention, the responsible gaming, the awareness of it, and then still having the tools to help people self exclude and get the resources that they need.
So those are ways that I think that there's a difference, but they, they're all basically, I would say that they have the same elements of one another. It's just I believe that the problem gambling is more for when that person really feels like, okay, this isn't fun anymore and this is now, you know, or a family member or a loved one, you know?
So I think it's having those resources available rather than limit setting, here's ways that you can stop.
Jordyn Mihok: Mm-Hmm. So you've talked a lot about the impacts that you and your colleagues have made, but is there anything that you think people misunderstand about the work that you and other professionals within the RG space do?
Tammi Barlow: I think that there, one, that because we work at competing operations, like gaming companies that we don't, we don't compete in this space. Right?
I think people don't really see how much collaboration that goes on between us when we all see each other at conferences, we're all very supportive of the work that we're doing.
We may compete when it comes to handle or you know, revenue and things like that but when it comes to responsible gaming, consumer protection, this is an area that we just, we share knowledge and I think that that is something that I, I just want people to know that it's, it's a, it's a safe space for all of us to be competitors, we meet in the middle when it comes here.
And I think the other thing is that people in the public may view us as just figureheads, right? Oh, they're just, you know, got this person, you know, just because they wanna be able to save face and that's not true either. I mean, maybe there are gaming companies that do approach it like that, but I can say that for all the companies that I've worked at, it's been genuine.
It comes from the top down, it is part of the culture. And so I just, you know, would love to dispel the myth that we're just here, as, as the face of, but we're really not committed to doing things. Like, that's also a misconception. Those are those two.
Jordyn Mihok: So many people in the responsible gaming space also talk about the concept of sustainable play, and can you kind of explain that concept and how it relates to responsible gaming?
Tammi Barlow: So the, the thing about sustainable play is that, you know, operators prefer to have customers that are with them for a long time, not just like a short time. So when we talk about sustainability, we talk about the fact that, you know, we want customers to be aware of ways that they can set limits, maybe take cool offs, things like that. Because the last thing we want is for someone to play, play, play, and then they burn out because that's not sustainable. Now you've lost that player because they have A, run out of money B, self excluded because they knew they had a problem or something else may have happened where they just decided that your platform wasn't for them.
You want sustainable players because they build, you know, loyalty. They know that you know you care about them, and that's where the communication comes in, you know, when things are looking a little bit different to maybe your, your customers play. And it's really being able to communicate the differences and, you know, bring things to their attention. It's about being able to have as many tools as possible on the site or you know, within the casinos to really, really remind them take breaks, keep your gaming safe.
Tammi Barlow: So that's what we mean about sustainability is, you know, rather than just playing just for the Super Bowl and then that's it, why don't you play with us through the tennis, you know, season and then later hockey, you know? And so those are the kinds of things. It's really about having an an a, a positive entertainment journey with us.
Jordyn Mihok: And I think that kind of goes back to what you were talking about earlier, about the misconceptions and how you don't just want to be figureheads and you wanna be able to, you know, support people and keep them safe while they're enjoying themselves.
Tammi Barlow: Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm.
Jordyn Mihok: And so based on what you've told me, there are a lot of, you know, great guidelines and systems in place to protect players. But what should operators be doing more of to make gaming safer for players in your opinion?
Tammi Barlow: I think the next frontier is really focusing on, you know, machine learning and AI, just different ways of tracking player behavior, understanding it so that you can have those key touch points during their play to let them know ways that they can make change behavior.
I think that is really, if I were to put back on my treatment hat, you know, from those days it's really about, what were the preventive measures that changed behavior, right? I think that's one, one way is just more of an emphasis on machine learning and understanding you know, player behavior.
And I also would like to see more resources around families because a lot of the research will show us that it's really the families and loved ones that are very affected, and they're usually the ones that are calling customer service, and they're the ones that are saying, this person has a problem.
I know there's like Singapore and Australia where families have much more of a say so in a player's exclusion and I know that can be very controversial at times, but I, I do hope to see ways that we can find as an industry to pay attention more to the loved ones.
We get calls all the time about, you know, people concerned that, their, their loved one is wasting their children's college tuition or their mortgage and away the house. How can you, you know, why can't you make them stop? So, I really would love to find ways to more empower families.
I know in Nevada they do a lot of great things. Stephanie Goodman, through her work, she's doing amazing things and I'm sure there are a lot of great programs. I know the National Council on Problem Gambling has an entire like pamphlet resource, you know, for families. So I just would like to see that evolve a little bit more.
So yeah, those would be my two areas.
Jordyn Mihok: Nice. So you kind of answered my next question, which was going to be how, how do you see responsible gaming and problem gambling programs changing over the next few years? Is there kind of anything else besides, you know, that impact on families that you can think of?
Tammi Barlow: I mean, I think that maybe, and I don't know yet if it's good or bad, I think there's gonna be a lot of more emphasis on advertising. I think it's really coming soon. I just hear that, you know, a lot of the jurisdictions are not happy, a lot of key stakeholders really feel like there's just too much.
I know that lawmakers are really trying to work with operators and I love to see those collaborations, you know, really listening. But there's, there's jurisdictions like New York that are just leading the way, I think in a lot of ways you're like, look, my number needs to be huge, we need to have a QR code so that everybody can get resources when they need them.
I mean, I just love to see that forward thinking. So... I don't know. One of my bosses said her favorite phrase was regulate yourself before you get regulated. And I think when it comes to the area of advertising, you know, maybe let's take a a, a tool from, you know, Ontario. One of Ontario's requirements for licensees is that you have to do a responsible gaming campaign and spend a percentage, you know, of your op of, of your funds.
And that's really groundbreaking because now, not only are you saying that you, you know, you can do advertising, but you have to do problem gambling and you, and you have to have KPIs, right? You have to tell us, you know, tell them who are you marketing to? What was the campaign, how successful was it? And the other great jurisdiction is Ohio, so I know Colorado is doing some things.
So I think that as time goes on, there's gonna be more, I don't even wanna call them restrictions, but maybe guardrails, to ensure that things don't end up like the UK where there's like a ban on this, there's a ban on that. And , I'm, I'm just hoping that over time we can continue to work with traders like the American Gaming Association, who's doing amazing things.
So I think just, that would is one thing that I can say just more restrictions, but I think if we can just as an industry get ahead of those and maybe learn some from other jurisdictions, I think that will prevent things from possibly getting too restrictive. And I hope that answered your question.
Jordyn Mihok: No, it definitely did. It's kind of interesting to me how you talk about how different jurisdictions are doing different things. So why is there such a gap when it comes to you know, the different people- places that are doing really great things with RG and people that are still kind of behind and need to step it up a little bit.
Tammi Barlow: Well, I think there's a couple things. I think a lot of things a lot of regulations were written, you know, years ago based on strictly casino operations. And I think what's happened is sports betting and, you know, different forms of gaming have increased. I think a lot of laws have been, or regulations have been created that are a little bit more current.
So I don't wanna say that it's one jurisdiction is doing maybe not as much because they're, they're not interested. It's just that sometimes there's like... you can't change gaming law that fast, you know? That's what I've learned because I've asked the same questions so things take time.
Also, I think that the key stakeholders within those different states, you know, speaking up about different things, there's not one blanket issue, right? I mean, everybody has, they listen to their own consumers, either the citizens within that state, and I think the laws promote that, but what is very universal is that as gaming has expanded, so is the expectation to have programs that address problem gambling. Now, they may not prescribe exactly what you have to do, sometimes jurisdictions just wanna see like, what are you going to come up with?
So I think that it's, you know, it's not one size fits all different jurisdictions are at different levels of their, you know, regulations but I do think it's just a matter of time before everything starts to kind of mirror each other more and more.
Jordyn Mihok: Very interesting. We're gonna kind of wrap this up now, but you've accomplished so much and found a lot of success in gaming, so like what advice would you give to young professionals just starting out in the gaming industry, whether that's, you know, in responsible gaming or just in different areas of the gaming industry?
Tammi Barlow: I think really network and use LinkedIn. You know, join African Americans in gaming if you are black or African America- from the diaspora. Look at GGW Global gaming Women, these are very powerful organizations. Follow the American Gaming Association, they're always talking about the state of the state. Really clue into, you know, National Council on Problem Gambling they have webinars all the time about different aspects of the industry.
I think you have to, take more. There's, there's so many resources out there. I think to be successful in this day and age, you just have to really go for it, jump in network, and figure out what works for you and what you're passionate about but if you don't look into these different areas and, and recognize the great resources for networking that are out there, then you're kind of limiting yourself. The gaming industry, everyone sort of knows everyone and you know, I think that you just have to kind of do a lot of homework to find out where your passion lies.
You might be wanting to be an attorney and never even knew that there's a whole, you know, gaming law side. You nev, you may not even know that you could maybe one day be a regulator. I mean, so it's really tapping into these great resources and just learning as much as you can and do- and internships, you know, a lot of these companies are offering internships, and you should absolutely take advantage of those because that's the best way to see what goes on behind the scenes of a gaming company.
Jordyn Mihok: Yeah, and I'm, I'm very new to the industry myself. So those groups that you mentioned, like that's just a great way to kind of make a community. And I think that, you know, being involved in GGW has kind of helped me better understand the industry too, because there are so many different parts of it that you don't even really consider if you're on the outside looking in.
Tammi Barlow: Yeah. And the other thing I'll say, a lot of the people like Anika Howard with, you know, Wondr Nation, Cait Debaum with AGA, you know, all, all of these women are very approachable, right? I think that's the other thing is that don't be afraid, to, to inbox someone, you know, to say, Hey, I'm really interested in what you're doing.
These are all women that have come through and like the, our whole purpose in my mind is to look back and see how we can make it easier right? So I think that, you know, we're all a really great group of people within this industry and I just encourage people to get to know us. 'cause you might be surprised.
Jordyn Mihok: That's a great way to wrap it up. So thank you so much, Tammi, for joining me today. I really enjoyed our discussion. I learned a lot and I am sure that our listeners will as well, but thank you so much for sharing your story.
Tammi Barlow: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
